Walk With Me

Who Sets Church Order: Culture Or Scripture?

• JJ

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Hello everybody, welcome to today's episode of Walk With Me. I am your host, JJ. So good to have each and every one of you here on today. It is so good to see you guys interacting with the post and and everything like that. And I really do appreciate the questions and comments. If you do have any questions, uh please send them to walk with me Bible study at gmail. Walk with me Bible Study at Gmail. And as a matter of fact, today is going to be one of these special episodes where we actually got a question and I got permission to use it because it's such a pertinent question for to you know for situations that are going on today. This episode or this question actually came right at the end of our Sunday school, and we had a sister ask. Um, and before we get started, please understand I'm giving you all disclaimer this disclaimer now. This is a very controversial subject. Um and there's a lot of reasons for it, and hopefully we get to cover some of that while we're uh in this episode, but it's a very controversial subject, and please understand also have this disclaimer. I did not write the Bible. Okay, if you're mad at me or if you agree with me, your your beef or your agreement is not with JJ, your beef or your agreement is with God, is with God. I'm saying that again, is with God. Okay, that being said, I'll let you all know what the question is now. Before we do that, big shout out to our our exquisite creation and our uh sponsor and two bars lyricists with the intro and the outro. Are we gonna get into it? Because I we have a lot of ground to cover in answering this question. The question is, are y'all ready? The question is, are women pastors a biblical thing? Um, and basically and to rephrase the question is can women be pastors? Now it's easy to say yes or no, uh, but we have to really get into um really have to get into the whole nuts and bolts of it. So let's talk about it from the beginning. Let's put it all out there and then I'll let you know where I come down with it. Maybe um maybe when we explain it, we go through it, you'll kind of pick out where I'm where I'm at. I'm gonna be where the Bible is. So let's talk about it. Alright, so what is a pastor? Now, uh the Bible does talk about uh it defines the pastor as a leader of the congregation, and for that, I would refer you to First Timothy 3 and 1. Okay, now when you talk looking at that scripture, 1 Timothy 3 and 1, and 1 Timothy 3 and 1 says this is the true saying. If a man desires an office of a bishop, he desires a good word. Wait a second, wait a second. Um, you said bishop, you didn't say pastor. Um, and so what are you talking about here? So we're gonna come back to that, but I also want to get in touch with what is a congregation, and that is gonna be Hebrews chapter 10. This is the best way that the Bible describes for a congregation 23 through 25. Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope of we affirm for God can be trusted to keep his promise. Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works, and let us not neglect the uh the assembling of ourselves together, as a matter of sum. Is this actually out of the New Living Translation? Uh, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is strong and near. This is the what the definition of the congregation is. I'm gonna go back and read that in the King James Version, um, verse 23. It will be let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering, for he is faithful that promise, and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good work. And here's the key not forsaking of our assembling of ourselves together as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another so much the more as you see the day approaching. So the definition of the congregation is us getting together to hear the word of God, and I'm that's really just boiling what it boils down to. So, what is the kind the qualifications of a bishop? Now we're gonna go back to 1 Timothy chapter 3, verse 1. This is a true saying. If a man desires the office of a bishop, he desires a good work. Now we're going to define it: a bishop must then be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach. Wait a minute, JJ. Wait a minute. You keep saying bishop, you didn't say pastor. So the question then becomes are pastors and bishops the same thing? The word bishop comes from the word episcopal. You ever you probably heard the word episcopal, episcopalian? Well, that's that's what that word is. That word now, in what we call today, is more of an oversight, it gives oversight, gives direction, gives management. Um, and all of this is in regards to the congregation. This was the original meaning of that word man, whereas a pastor came from the word paymon, which means to lead, lead, and care for the congregation. So it is easy to understand that in the original meaning of the word in the church, bishop and pastor were interchangeable, they were basically the same thing. Um, in the book of Acts, chapter 20, and verse 17 to 28, if you read down through there, it basically tells us how these are all the same duties. The bishop is the pastor, and the pastor is the bishop. Uh, it's kind of like the difference between an ew and a lamb. It's the same with two different words for the same thing. So only later um in the church history, I don't use the word diaspora, but only in later in church history and mainly after the 30th century A.D., we all know what happened then. Um, did they start differentiating between pastors and bishops to where that uh pastor would be over one congregate and a bishop would basically oversee and manage several congregates. This is a Catholicism concept that was brought into the church. So let's go back now to 1 Timothy chapter 3. So it says this is a true saying, if a man, so it you know, obviously, right off the bat, it says a man has to desire this office. So the first qualification is that it has to be now worried. We we we still got a lot where to go on this, so don't get mad to turn it off yet. Okay, so if a man has to have to be the first qualification, why is that now? Paul talks about that in uh first Timothy chapter two, right toward the end of the chapter, he he briefly touches on it, and that's why it's a very important that we always read the first to two above, verse the two below. But in here we are going to talk about in 1st Timothy chapter 2, it says 2 and uh 12. But I suffer not a woman to nor to usurp authority over a man, but to be in subjection or to be in silence. Uh, for Adam was first formed, then Eve. So, what Paul is doing here is we're is referring back to godly order the way God set it up in the beginning. Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression, notwithstanding, she shall be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. So, what is Paul saying here? Paul is saying that because the devil decided that it was easier to deceive, God made it as far as it's part of the judgment that the woman had to be subject to the man, and so that means in order for the to keep the godly order, you couldn't have a woman in charge, and we'll get back in touch with that. But you had to have the man in charge of the house. Now, um, let's go back to 1 Timothy chapter 3 because there are a lot of things that we're gonna touch on, and then I'm gonna give you the counter-argument, okay? So I'm gonna give you the square on both sides, all right. So bishop miss then be blameless, the husband of one wife. Now, you you can't be a woman and be a husband, right? So let's keep going. Uh vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach. Now, you could be a man and not meet any of those other requirements. Guess what? You are not qualified to be a pastor or a DN. Full stop, all right? Now, and it keeps going, not given to wine. So you can't be a drunkard, disqualification, you can't be a striker, um, and you're done. Or greed or filthy lucre. Well, oh, that that so I mean you you can't be a lover of money, you can't be locking the doors and demanding people give you$14,000 if it's your rolling. And I know y'all know what I'm talking about, and don't get mad at that guy for make that other guy for making that video, mocking that, because he's not he's only mocking the devil, he's not mocking God, all right? And be patient, not a brawler nor coveters. Now, I'm gonna tell y'all something, I'm gonna put this everything right on the line. JJ has a problem with I I just gotta keep it, but we're gonna keep we're gonna keep moving. We got a lot of ground to cover, right? Um, one that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity, because if he don't know how to rule his own house, how is he gonna take care of the congregation? So now these are all the qualifications that a bishop or a pastor must have. Okay, so what about some of the art the counter-arguments? And the reason why I say this because we're gonna I want to give you both sides and we're gonna come down to the truth here. When people, when they refer to, oh, you know what, women can be pastors, the first thing they want to throw out is what about Esther? Well, wasn't Esther a queen and don't queens rule stuff? Well, yeah, but when you you look at Esther, Esther, we gotta really go back and read that entire book of Esther to fully understand Esther's situation. Esther was a replacement, um, and she was replacing Queen Vashti decided she was gonna be rebellious and not do what the king told her to do, and so the queen got banished out of the kingdom, and Esther was only picked because she was pretty, not because she had leadership skills, she had no qualifications except she was pretty, and Mordecai set that up, and uh Mordecai allowed Esther to be chosen as one of the finalists the queen, and during that time, um, Esther was kind of one of many, like it wasn't just like Esther was the only queen, there was a whole bunch of people, women who lived in the king's house and was considered queen. So, in essence, it was almost like she was in like the American idol situation of who's gonna be the last queen standing. So, fast forward a bit, and there was this uh guy who was uh named Haman, who was the descendant of Agag. And if Agag sounds familiar, it was the king that uh Saul was supposed to kill, and he did not. So um Samuel ended up killing Agag. So this guy, Haman, already had beef with the Jewish people. So, long story short, um Haman the Agagite found out that Esther was a Jew, or found out that Mordecai uh was a Jew and decided he was going to convince the king to have all the Jews killed. So, and it was Mordecai who sent Esther to talk to the king for a reprieve. So, read read the book if you don't believe me. So you have to see that Esther herself here was subject and submissive to both the king and to the prophet, so she was not a leader. Um, and as a matter of fact, when she went to King Xersees, if she went without having an appointment or having been accepted to speak, she would have been put to death. But it just so happens that God allowed it so that um she was able to speak to save the children of Israel, and it's impossible to unto to leave that part out when you talk about Esther. So, yes, while Esther was a queen, the queen was pretty much titled only. So um she basically had to do what Mordecai said and what the king said, and it was Mordecai that actually spoke to God. So Mordecai was the prophet, Mordecai would be the pastor, the king would pretty much be the mayor or the president. She was not a leader, so um, and the good thing was that Mordecai loved to uh troll to control them. He would like to like to troll them because he said, I'm not gonna bow to you, I'm gonna just bow to God. Now move right along because we have another counter-argument I want to get through. The other thing that people want to throw out to you when they talk about women pastors is Deborah the judge. Now, this is a situation that's quite different from Esther's situation, but it is also a unique situation. Um, even Deborah was quick to call out how soft Barack's uh how soft he was. Um, and she was like, Well, you know what? Because you didn't go up when I told you to go up and fight this sister of the king, the Lord is going to have his victory, but it's gonna be at the hands of a woman, which at that time was considered a huge insult, was a huge insult to any warrior, to any man worth his salt. So, and to read that, read Judges chapter 5 and 7. So it shows a curious scene, but you will also see in during that time in the book of Judges, which I always call JJ, me personally, not the Bible, just me personally. I call that the book of badness because Israel was in a place where they were really wrapped up in idolatry. Um, men were not doing what they were supposed to do. Some of them were, most of them weren't. Most of us, I say us, most of us weren't. And if you uh Judges chapter 5, it lays out a very serious situation. It talks about how a lot of the men of the tribes were pretty much sitting around idle and not doing what they were supposed to do. And it it listed lists all the tribes of Israel how no one was standing up to this oppressive king, no one was standing up for the for the will and word of God, no one, no one was really doing it except this guy Barack. And Barack was so soft that when the prophet told him to go up, he said, I'm not going unless you go with me. And a lot of preachers will preach that this is him submitting to the will of God, but when you read it in context, it really, especially with what Deborah said to him, it really Barack's relative softness based on what he wouldn't wouldn't do. So, and after this, you don't see any more female judge, uh any more female judges, you don't see any female prophets, you don't see any um any other situations where you can point to that gives credence that Deborah was the first of many, and so that it sort of lets us know that the reason why Deborah was in a position where she was, and she was married, she was married, and she was still judging Israel because God had to do it because the men were not stepping up. This is kind of where we are now in some churches, like men are just not stepping up, and men are not doing what we're supposed to be. So God will use someone in a unique situation like this, even if it's it's only even even if he allows it just because it's this has to be done, you know. When Jesus said, Um, if you don't say hallelujah and praise praise me, the rocks and the trees are gonna cry out. You've never seen that happen, right? Because someone was stepping up, and and even if that happens, it was gonna be a one-time thing. Now, here is an argument that calling caught me off guard because it almost it almost backs up the female pastor's position. Joel chapter 2. Now, in Joel chapter 2, it talks about the um matter of fact, I'll go ahead and read it. Joel chapter 2, uh, verse 28. Now, if you're an apostolic, you know this verse by heart, right? And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and daughters shall prophesy. Your men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions, and upon all the servants and upon all the handmaids, in those days I will pour out my spirit. Well, there you go, JJ. That's that that word prophesy means to profit, uh, not so fast. See that word prophets, that word prophesy is coming from the Hebrew word nabo, which means to speak based on inspiration. Now, if you go back to the definition of a pastor, there is the word pastor is based on a leadership, but not on being able to speak with inspiration. Okay, now that's the that's the big problem with that argument. All right, now I can go in detail and I can go back and say the spirit of God allows the women to preach, which is true, because if you don't, here's the problem: here's the problem with with saying women cannot preach, because Joel says in there, your sons and daughters shall prophesy. Your sons and daughters shall uh speak based on inspiration, inspiration of what God. Now, that does not mean they are to be in a position of leadership. Not everybody who preach can be a pastor. Let's let's keep it keep it above. Not everybody who can be a pastor, not everybody who pastors can be a bishop, and and I'm saying that because this is how we separated and pastors, although the Bible keeps bishop and pastor right up at the same thing, so but going back to the definition of what a bishop or a pastor is, we still have it talking a lot about how to be a leader. Now, you can be trained to be a leader, that's that's fine, but in order to do that, you have to first start off with a man desiring all the bishop, and he desires a good work. A bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife. Again, you cannot be a woman uh and be a husband. That's that's just how it is, and the reason why that is is because the Bible clearly says wives to your husbands, and husbands love your wives. So that puts the divine order from God to man or husband to wife. Not every husband can be a bishop, right? But every bishop must be a husband. I know, but JJ, I see all these single preachers, single pastors. Guess what? God is going to send them a wife because they have to they have to be biblical, and that's just how I mean that's just how it is. And I I hate to say it like that, but I didn't write it, right? I didn't write it. So, and this is an issue just like in the days of Deborah, where you know, you we've been out of we've been out of position, we're decisive, uh, we're not in control of ourselves, uh, we we don't we're not in control of our homes. We we've allowed what basically basically feminism, and I I don't want to get political here, but the spirit of feminism take over and move ourselves out of the places that God sent us. And and this is why, and I'm I'm not blaming women, I'm blaming men for this because it's our job to be in control, it's our job to be in control of ourselves because it says be vigilant, sober, of good behavior, and given to hospitality. This is all after being a husband or One wife, if you're not any of these, you cannot be a pastor, and then you have to be called to be a pastor. It's not even just every anybody who anybody who wants to can do it. You there is a whole trust me, there's a whole different set of uh callings and things that you're gonna have to go through be a pastor. Kind of learn this the hard way, folks. Um, no striker, not no greedy. You can't be greedy, you gotta be patient, you can't be a brawler. And I'm gonna tell you something. I'm not sometimes my patience is not where it needs to be. Sometimes getting into verbal spats, uh I is something that JJ has to work on, absolutely, one thousand percent. No conveches or one that rules his own house. We can go on and on, but all of these qualifications are to be a pastor, and then here's the thing the next um, the next step down, the deacons must follow almost the same exact qualif of the bishop or the pastor. Because remember, at this time in church history, when Paul was speaking, bishop and pastor, synonymous, was actually the exact same thing, they were just using different words. We made it different because we decided to build a church governmental structure. I covered in a couple episodes. I may have to revisit. Okay, and let those, and here's the thing, and here's where it um it gets it gets down to the nitty-gritty for us men. Let these also first be proved and let them use the office of a deacon being found blameless. And so you're gonna ask me, Well, can they be female deacons? No, I know I've I've heard the term deaconess, it's literally I I've had somebody say, Yeah, we just made that up, but yeah, but you can't be the pastor, you can be a I mean, I I can't say that a woman is not called to preach. That's not what I said, and the reason why I'm saying that because that would violate Joel 2.28 upon your sons and daughters, I will pour out my spirit of prophecy under inspiration, inspiration of what mission of God. I cannot say that a woman cannot preach. Now I know Paul said I'd rather not keep silent in church, Paul's referring to sing else. Okay, Paul was referring to sing else because of something that was going on in the church of Ephesus at the time because they were remembering now, Ephesus were heavily to Diana Worship, so that spirit was to church. So that being said, the Bible is very clear, the Bible's been very clear ever since the fall of man in the garden, but the divine order has always been God, man, woman. But this is not to say, and I'm not I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this out there, it's not to say that men are somehow superior to women. Don't let that devil out of you. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that men are superior to women. What I am saying is this is the way God set it up. We are supposed to women as Christ loves the church and give ourselves for our women, our wives. Be having women floating around out there, we should be married. God has always wanted man and woman married, married, not in a marriage and sleeping with the and I I know y'all. I I'm not blind and I'm not deaf and I'm not dead. I know that sometimes marriages get hard. I know that. I know sometimes kids get out of control. I know that. That doesn't mean you can't be a pastor because you got a kid that just ran off in rebellious, but you have to have had control at some point and doing everything you can to maintain control. You have to be a wife the way God says it. In other words, husband loves you as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. So it's not like woman, get me my sandwich. You know, it's not that kind of not that kind of party. That's not what a pastor is supposed to be. Now, a woman should be subject to her husband. In other words, the husband says, Hey, this is what the Bible says. Sit down and we study it out, and this is what God is leading me. The woman may not like it, just like the man may not like what God tells him to do, but we all have to follow it. All right, now again, I didn't write it. Don't get mad at JJ, but the Bible says the way the Bible writes it, the way Paul writes it, remember now Paul is divinely inspired, the led of God. There is no way a woman could be a pastor. Can she be an evangelist? Yes. Uh, there were some female evangelists in the book of Acts, but they were not starting churches or they were not pastoring churches, they were just going out preaching the gospel. Um, can't women be Sunday school teachers? Oh, absolutely, one thousand percent. So why that is because the children tend to bind more to their mothers, and this is a natural thing. I I'm not sure why, but meant you know, and so your your the mother, the wife, has to be a godly and has to know what she the children. And so, yeah, can she be a Sunday school teacher? Yeah, can she lead the choir? Yes, can she um lead an outreach team? Yes, do everything except be a pastor, yes. Can she be a pastor? No, can she be a bishop? No. Can a husband be a wife? No. Just I don't want you that um that there's some that this misogynistic. I don't want I don't want that spirit around. But this is what the Bible says, and you can like it or you can not. Uh like I said, I'm probably gonna lose a couple of you guys, uh, a couple of you folks, this podcast. Um, but please understand I didn't write it. I'm not apologizing for it. Uh, but this is what does say of the Lord. And Paul was Paul was the one who said it, um, you know, using God. Otherwise, otherwise, you have to discount everything he says, and the whole Bible goes out the window. And then now, where are you? You are law. Safer is go with what the word of God says. No, women cannot be pastors. Can they be um, I don't know, whatever else. Can they be secretaries? Yes. And that's not even a put down. The church doesn't run without the secretary, the church doesn't run without administration, the church doesn't run without without all of these things. So I'm not even sure why we got into saying these things that that positions roles were somehow lesser than the pastor. The pastor and pastors, a church needs a choir lead to keep everything in control, uh, needs an outreach, needs people to lead the outreach, um, lead fundraising, lead all kinds of stuff. But you know, and this is where we can, you know, we can fit in. Uh can a woman give a Bible study? Absolutely. Can a wife give a Bible study? 100%. Who's gonna teach the women how to be godly women? Can a man teach a yeah, I guess so, but it'd be more received if it came from a godly woman. So um, there are definite roles, very important, very serious, um, in influential, consequential roles of a woman in the church, it's not those. All right, I hope this answered that question. Uh, I expect, I expect some of you will not like what I said, and that's okay. But uh I love y'all anyway. So I hope to see y'all in the next one. And remember, if you have any other questions, uh, you know, get with us at uh walkwithme bible study at gmail. Walk with me bible study at gmail. I say it else like this a bunch of uh a bunch of us here working, but no, it's just a pretty much a one man show. But I love each and every one of you. God bless you. I'll see you on the next one.